May 29, 2008 / 11:10
IN your thread at one point you ask the following question:
"Where the vindictiveness comes from I don’t know."
It comes from him having to read blogs like this.
You may not understand why he got the messier award, then go on about how you don't buy into comments that sundin had nobody to play with.
Take a look at messier himself, who he had as linemates, then think about what you said.
Compare the linemates quality to that of what sundin has had.
Question answered.
May 29, 2008 / 11:17
The facts are Fred that Mat's has busted his ass for this team for 13 years, with very little back up from player personnel or from Management. Any player who has been interviewed on the Leafs or other teams say what a great leader Mat's has been. Can you name one that hasn't said that??
He also has the right to determine his future whether it be a Leaf, Montreal, or retirement. He has earned that.As far as I am concerned the problems with the Leafs stem solely from Management and it doesn't look any better now even with Fletcher supposedly running the show. How could they not have at least interviewed Armstrong for the GM position. I understand he has signed on with St. Louis.
May 29, 2008 / 11:18
I’ve always been a fan of Sundin. The talent is obvious and his durability is awesome but I do agree to a slight extent with Fred. Recently a hockey commentator stated that there are ‘players who can lead you to the playoffs and then there are players who can lead you to a cup’. I truly believe Sundin fits perfectly in the former category. Given the leadership and talent around him he can be on a cup winning team. It just won’t happen where Mats is the main leader.
May 29, 2008 / 11:38
Nobody is more deserving than the Messier Award!!!
Please refer to the Canuck years Messier spent for the comparison.
May 29, 2008 / 11:41
70 Million or so dollars over his time here in TO should alleviate the pain of mean old Fred's blog I would think. Sundin is the captain of this cities major sports franchise. If he can't take criticism from leaf fans he should hand in The C and leave.
IMHO he has no right to be bitter. He says that he loves the team and the city. He just doesn’t act that way sometimes and certainly not at the trade deadline.
Having said that he hasn’t had the best players to play with and has been on some crappy teams. As well he did have a no trade clause and it was his right to ask the leafs to hold up there end of the deal. So being mad about him deciding not to leave is pointless.
I have basically given up on this team and have no expectation that they will do any of the things required to get themselves into a position to contend.
May 29, 2008 / 13:35
This is probably the most frustrating topic that crops up on this forum. Frustrating because Freddie, you have the luxury of spouting off the same opinion again and again, but never reply when faced with facts to the contrary. For instance, if you don't buy "into the theory that he’s never been given anyone of skill to play with", why don't you provide the list of stellar, first-line calibre players Sundin has had to work with? Let's see there was Mogilny, and ah...umm...hmm. Well hopefully you can throw in a few more names there Fred. How about evaluating his leadership and abilities by focusing on the bums whose level of play was raised by playing with him. Jonas Hoglund anyone?
As fare as vindictiveness, I guess the same must be true of those good old "heart and soul-ers" Tucker and McCabe, who also refused to waive their NT clause. They hate the Leafs too, right?
Sorry, Freddie, but when the majority of replies always seem to run counter to your opinion, when you can't back up your assertions with facts, and when Sundin is given a leadership award, you obviously ARE missing something.
May 29, 2008 / 14:01
Very passionate Max.. but..
Nobody wanted Tucker or McCabe, and good players make those they play with better. Mats could never quite accomplish that feat.
Therefore I don't have to list the guys Sundin played with, because obviously he could never raise their game - even during the few good years under Pat Quinn when the Leafs advanced in the playoffs.
Without Sundin's help I might add.
The beauty of this blog is that everyone can voice their opinion, including me, although I usually restrict mine to an opening statement.
You, like me can give an opinion whenever you want, as many times as you want. You can even write your own piece if you want, and I'll post it. I call it guest columnist
What else can I say. I could never buy into the Sundin myth and refuse to now.
And don't try and throw the Swede thing at me because one of my favourite Leafs of all time was Borje Salming.
A guy who showed up "every" game.
As for yesterday's award. A stroke job.
May 29, 2008 / 14:15
Freddie,
Like most others here, I disagree with you, but it is not my job nor intent to change your mind. I would like to point out though that I think you missed the mark with your diatribe.
The intent of the Mark Messier Leadership award is not to reward the Captain of the Stanley Cup winning team. It is to recognize an all around on and off ice community leader. From TSN (http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=239104&lid=sublink02&lpos=headlines_main)
"The award recognizes Sundin's outstanding performance as a player, his leadership skills and his dedicated humanitarian efforts."
It goes on to talk more about his off ice leadership as well. Coupled with his obvious leadership traits, whether you agree or not, he is deserving of this award. It has nothing to do with waiving a no trade clause so a bunch of money grubing tools in Management can try to turn their personal images around in the eyes of the public.
So, I have a question for you Freddie. If Corus, or whomever employed you at the time of your termination asked you and HH to go to another station so that they could bring in a better team there, would you do it? No, I doubt that you would, even on the "potential" that you "might" win an award there, or possibly be on the air there longer than here.
The only difference is that you didn't have the option to turn it down, so you got the door, Sundin happened to have a little insurance in that regard, I think he's brilliant for having it.
--Pete
May 29, 2008 / 17:02
"Therefore I don't have to list the guys Sundin played with, because obviously he could never raise their game ..."
Come on Fred. This is getting a tad silly. Your bias is clouding your judgment. Couldn't raise their game???
You don't seriously think Jonas Hoglund could have scored 30 goals on his own? He didn't come CLOSE to that with any other NHL team. Same with Sergei Berezin. Renberg's numbers increased significantly over his previous seasons, and let's not forget Antropov. You don't think he has Mats to thank for his vast improvement over the past couple years? While I'm pointing out how these guys were made better by playing with Sundin, there's also an opportunity to look at this list of quality players. Let's see, Hoglund - nothing more needs to be said. Berezin - freewheeling puck hog. Renberg - a guy who had his best years with Lindros and LeClair 6 seasons before joining the Leafs. Not a lot to work with, and there's probably a half dozen other examples I can't (or refuse!) to remember.
May 29, 2008 / 17:02
I agree with you on this one Fred. If you watch replays of most of Mats goals over the years, most have ricochet into the net off some part of his body. Hell I can do that. The biggest thing I agree with you on is his me,me,me, attitude. "Mats Sundin put Mats Sundin first." Who knows, if he wasn't so selfish the Leafs may have made the playoffs. ;0)
May 29, 2008 / 17:21
Sucking up to Fred eh Mike, after he slapped your wrist on an earlier topic.
May 29, 2008 / 17:22
Freddie,
Mats doesn't owe the Leafs anything. Sure he could have done the fans a favour by going somewhere for a few weeks, but what for? The organization blows... I wouldn't give them the time of day if they asked. The Leafs made their bed, now they have to sleep in it.
May 29, 2008 / 18:25
Fred : All the reasons for why I think Sundin was such a presence are blogged here already. Talent, durability,work ethic. There is no act to buy into here, Mats is the real deal.
May 29, 2008 / 21:21
Mats should have waived his 'no trade' clause weeks ago. Now the Leafs get nothing back. Freddie is bang on!!! Mats....you are an ass!ole.
May 29, 2008 / 23:18
wow...when everybody pushes fred (who i love even when disagreeing with) to come up with the talent he played with....he replies ...um...well..he had no talent...but should have...built talent..yeah thats the ticket...build up his linemates.
Thats right...maple leaf sports has no responsibility over the years to attract, develop and sign talented linemates.....its up to mats to just magically build all of the rosters to quality levels.
Give me a break. Loved mats and will support him even when he leaves this train wreck for another team this season.
This is silly...
May 30, 2008 / 00:38
Well Fred, we're both kinda iffy, but I kept my job, you didn't. Need I say more
Number 1 in 97
May 30, 2008 / 08:59
Hey Freddie - Take the advice you gave Mayor Miller and look at the root cause of the problem... Leaf's management... Don't blame Sundin for the predicament the team is in.. why should it be his responsibility to fix what they have screwed up?
June 6, 2008 / 12:32
Excellent read. I thought I was the only person in town who hadn't swilled the Sundin Kool-Aid.
For over a decade, Sundin has disappeared after February.
But this year, when it would have served the franchise to do so, he inflicted maximum damage by scoring goals (for once) and refusing to leave when it could have done some good.
They were on track to be in the running for Stamkos, but Sundin made sure that wouldn't happen.
They could have gotten something for him, but now they will get nothing.
Sundin's actions earlier this year added considerably to the time that this team will stink.
Yes, management blows. But all this guy has 'led' this team to... is failure. Years and years of failure.
If Fletcher re-signs him after what he did to the team this year, then he's even more of a Forrest Gump idiot than I thought.
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If you’ve been a frequent reader of this blog over the past couple of years, and or if you used to listen to me on the radio, you know I’ve never been a big fan of Mats Sundin’s.
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